apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

Nice, although I'll reserve my judgment until I can see them in person.

I do wish people would quit acting like incandescents are "obliterating the planet," though. Changing to CFLs might reduce your carbon footprint by, what, 0.005%? Probably less. Sure, every little bit helps, but it's not as though making the switch is going to save us from oblivion -- or like failing to make the switch equals rampantly destructive behavior.

I'm guilty too - still trying to find dimmable ones. I've heard they exist, but can't find them...

Yeah, let's all just do whatever we want in line with aesthetics and not make the least little sacrifice like putting up with a marginal reduction in lighting quality.

This is exactly the sort of attitude which will keep us right where we are. Do what you want, but don't rationalize it by talking about how small the effect is. It's not only about using less energy (though it is that), but also that CFLs last a lot longer than incandescents so there is a lot less material waste. An incandescent can burn out in less than a year. Most CFLs last for many years.

I wasn't going to say anything about this post, but the comments rationalizing not making tiny sacrifices are worse than the post admitting you're doing something you know you shouldn't. At least the poster is a little embarrassed about it.

i didn't think these looked too bad either:

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/10060606

The thing with cfl's is they pulse or flicker. The flickering is so rapid that it is visually undetectable, but your brain knows it's there. That is the real reason cfl's seem so....off putting. It's not just the color.

Incandescents don't flicker. So I am sticking with the incandescents until they come up with something better.

I'm not changing from incandescents at home any time soon! I'm sorry, Orchid64, but the QUALITY of the light affects the quality of ME. And CFL's in general have an incredibly horrid light quality. Should I "sacrifice" and stop eating and drinking foods that appeal to me? Would you? The same rationale goes for lighting for me.

CFL lights that dim:
http://www.buylightfixtures.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=793
http://www.servicelighting.com/catalog_product.cfm?source=Froogle.com&prod=GL24001

Keywords: dim cfl

Chat on dimming CFLs:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=976928

And I still don't see anyone addressing THIS ISSUE:

Less than a month after the U.S. Congress passed an energy bill banning the incandescent light bulb by 2014, the UK Environment Agency issued guidelines calling for evacuation of any room where an energy-saving compact fluorescent light bulb is broken, releasing toxic mercury.

Users who break a bulb should vacate the room for at least 15 minutes, the new guidelines say. The debris should not be removed with a vacuum cleaner, which could put toxic dust into the air, but with rubber gloves. The broken glass and all residue is to be placed into a sealed plastic bag and taken to a local official recycling site for proper disposal.

The most-immediate hazard from the CFL bulbs may be to Brits’ pocketbooks. It costs about $1,300 to properly dispose of one municipal recycling bin full of bulbs – a figure that is sure to increase residents’ tax bills.

Source:
http://www.talkbx.com/2008/01/06/cfl-bulbs-when-broken-can-dim-your-health/

Oh, and more info about Energy Star CFLs and locating them:
http://energystar.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/energystar.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2565&p_created=1148315337

Same here about the light quality. We're lucky in that some of our lights require two bulbs, so we replaced one with a CFL and kept the other an incandescent. The light is still nice a warm and funny enough, the incandescents have blown about 4 times in the time the CFL has been in there. But an all CFL solution looked horrible, and I've tried about 6 different brands and types with no luck.

So these new Sylvania's look promising.

I agree with Orchid64. And this wouldn't annoy me nearly as much if every other post in this blog wasn't about "going green" or buying "eco-friendly products".

Just enough to be hip and cool and make yourself feel better, not enough to make any real sacrifice. Not even color temperature.

RichardinLA: incandescent lights flicker as well due to the way electric current works: http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/ergonomics/lighting_flicker.html.

lots of stone-throwing going on here... i think the cfl/incandescent debate is rightfully more complicated than "choose cfl or you suck". if organic and local produce had inferior taste or quality to conventional produce, you'd see a lot of people teetering between the choice. similarly, i could choose to drive a prius, as it would certainly reduce my carbon-footprint, but i'm using the money i would have spent on that car to save for my daughter's college education, and buy groceries at whole foods. we should be able to speak frankly about these issues without worrying about judgement.

@ True Blue:
In reality CFLs prevent mercury from being released into the environment. The burning of fossil fuels for energy is the single largest contributor of mercury pollution. Less energy means less pollution.


This is from the G. E. website:
CFLs contain a very small amount of mercury sealed within the glass tubing - an average of 5 milligrams (roughly equivalent to the tip of a ball-point pen). Mercury is an essential, irreplaceable element in CFLs and is what allows the bulb to be an efficient light source. By comparison, older home thermometers contain 500 milligrams of mercury and many manual thermostats contain up to 3000 milligrams. It would take between 100 and 600 CFLs to equal those amounts.

All product placement...all the time?

I can't stand cfl's -- I use 25 watt bulbs thoughout my apt -- and all on dimmers. And I do justify it because my carbon footprint is otherwise smaller than most (live in a compact apt, use mass transit, very little ac in summer, etc. etc.)

One issue never brought up in this debate is why people feel the need to light their homes so brightly -- I was in a neighbors apt recently, and she's a grand earthy-crunchy old hippy, and she changed all her lamps to cfl bulbs -- my god, it was so ghastly bright and sickening! I was so happy to get back to my living room with 2 table lamps each with a 15 watt bulbs softly glowing, and quite frankly, probably consuming a comparable amount of energy or even less.

And why do apt hallways have to be lit so you can read the fine print? In Europe, it's common to have to press a switch in a hallway that gives you about 5 mins to get to your apt door, then the lights go off again.

Typically american, we are happy with quick fix -- like a diet pill -- rather than many small and gradual changes in behavior that ultimately lead to better results.

Does anyone know of any brick and mortar stores where these are readily available? I live in Canada and the sites I have found that carry Sylvania don't, of course, ship north. (As far as I can tell, Lucia Lighting isn't really an e-tailer.)

I was wondering what's going to happen to my chandeliers. I have nightmarish visions of coily bulbs...and considered hoarding bulbs for my chandelier. Yeah, yeah, yeah...I'm going to hell...

Ugh... I HATE CFLs and stubbornly refuse to use them. They bother me to the point that I can't go over to people's houses for dinner if they use them. They make me physically ill to be around.

So, I am sticking with my beloved incandescents - which in upcoming years I will be hoarding by the caseful.

There's other ways to reduce your carbon footprint. Instead of switching to CFLs I turn off every light when not in use (we used to be really bad about leaving lights burning all the time), insulated the house, eat locally and drive a fuel efficient car that runs on B20.

Incandescents may have flicker too, but I think the frequency of the flicker is different from that of CFLs. For several people I know, the flicker of CFLs exacerbates their migraines or neurological conditions. Individual neurons are tuned to fire in response to very specific stimuli, and it is likely that for these people, the neurons that are tuned to the frequency of CFL flicker are wired in a way that causes problems. So Orchid64, people's dislike of CFLs may not simply be "aesthetic" in the sense that they simply think it doesn't look nice. Their brains may be wired in such a way that it triggers a strong aversive response or it worsens a neurological condition.

I found CFL bulbs for a chandelier...looks like...well...you'll see...

http://www.greenelectricalsupply.com/7-watt-candelabra-base-cfl-ww.aspx

I guess I will be hoarding delicate little incadescent bulbs.

GE makes great CFLs that you can get at Home Depot these days. They make them in warm or (if you're so inclined) cool shades. I had also been holding out until CFLs improved. People are shocked to find out my apartment is filled with CFLs. They'd never even know if I didnt tell them. At this point the only incandescent bulbs I have in my entire apartment are three dimmables. Now that Ive found a source for dimmable CFLs I may switch them out.
It is a little scary to spend $25 on a lightbulb without seeing it in person. I'm a little skeptical that the dimmable versions wouldn't behave strangely at lower levels...

Has anyone here ever had a cavity? Did you get it filled with an amalgam filling? If so, then you're walking around with 100 times as much mercury--IN YOUR HEAD--than in a CFL bulb. And let's not even ponder how much mercury is in those cell phones that are being tossed in the trash everyday.

I say, weigh the pros and cons. Choose the bulbs that are the best compromise for your situation. But be sure your facts are straight--the mercury in a CFL bulb is not a legitimate reason to avoid the bulbs.

Orchid64, I actually do use CFLs. I just don't like how everyone seems to have pinned All The Green Hopes of Society on them -- there are a ton of other choices that make just as much of an impact. I wonder how many CFL-equivalents are used by manufacturing the disposable packaging for a week's worth of takeout orders, for example.

Am I the only one that can't tell the difference between incandescents and CLFs?. I have been changing my lights to CLFs as my incandescents burn out and I would have to go around and check to tell which ones are which.

I hate CFL's. But I use them where I don't really care - like the basement, steps to basement, etc. I refuse to use them in my lamps in my apartment. For one, I don't use more than one light on at a given time in my dinky apartment anyways.

What I find most disturbing is businesses that keep their hundreds of lights on when the business is closed. And lighting parking lots when the store is closed.

I tried using CFL's and they made my migraines oh-my-gosh-awful. It took a while to figure out what the problem was, a friend asked me if I had started using CFL's and sure enough I had. I swapped them back and the migraines dropped back to my normal levels. I'm not able to "will" a migraine away in any other circumstance, so I don't think it's coincidence.

So for now until there's a solution to this new problem I have to stick the regular bulbs. If a bulb is going to put me out of commission for days at a time then nope, it's not worth it to me.

I'll use CFLs where the quality of the light doesn't bother me: in halls, in outdoor lamps, in the basement.

But for the kitchen, or the living room, or any place that I need to a) see and b) not be depressed as all-get-out? Incandescents, at least for now.

Bar the time CFLs take to get to full brightness (under 20secs for newly installed bulbs, to around 40-50secs for bulbs which have been in use for at least a few years and are nearing the end of their lifecycle), I really don't see the massive differences people are reporting. I generally use 'warm white' all around the house anyway, as I hate bright white.

Unless the CFLs you guys are getting in the US (or elsewhere for that matter) are vastly different to the Osram/Philips/IKEA/generic ones being sold over here, I can't believe the statements about flicker being that big of an issue. Are you all using CFLs as bare bulb lighting or what? While it's true that the first gen CFLs were quite terrible, I'm beginning to suspect this is just a case of not wanting to let go of pre-conceived notions of the drawbacks of CFLs. As for light levels, they do sell 25W ones right? Yeah those ones that are roughly the equivalent of a 100w incandescent bulb. If these aren't bright enough, folks must be living with 20ft high ceilings or like skin-searing spotlight-level lighting in close proximity? CFLs over here (Malaysia) come in 3 colour temperatures - Cool Daylight, Daylight, and Warm White. Again, kind of hard to imagine that with such choices, people can't find one that works?

Not trying to preach or anything, as I'm hardly the eco-warrior type, but can't people even consider using them around the home where it's more ambient lighting than task lighting? Even if just a few more lamps per home made the switch, that wouldn't be a bad thing right?

oh and BTW - check out http://www.megaman.cc/global/index.php

They have 'dimmable' CFLs. They also seem to have one of the largest ranges of CFL bulbs too.

I replaced every single light bulb in my house with a CFL except for the ones in a chandelier over the dining room table. They may not be the prettiest but I'm trying to do as many "little things" as I can.

My main gripe with CFLs is the time it takes for them to warm-up. I have mostly switched, but in my dark bathroom (no windows, it is an interior room), I can't wait for the delay. So it is all regular incandescant bulbs there, since there is no delay. You try stumbling in bleary-eyed in the AM and not being able to see your face well... it doesnt' work!

I agree, they aren't as warm. I have a few in a pendant lamp inside my bedroom/loft, and there is lots of raw wood (we haven't completed any work on this room yet, so it's all raw ply and 2x4s), but the warmth of the wood counteracts the CFLs.

All my light bulbs are GE CFL 13W or 26W. I bought them by the pack at Sam's Club, the cheapest place I've found in my area. My electric bill went down dramatically, in fact, I now never have a bill over $25/month. I also shut off what I am not using. That was the reason and bottom line for me... my pocketbook. "Green" or not, these particular GE CFL bulbs produce a very nice light (yes I strongly agree some CFLs are intolerable) and these have more than paid for themselves from my bank account's point of view. All of my house guests are very surprised that the light is from CFLs and have purchased GE CFLs for their homes too.

Instead of a dimmer, I light candles, that I make myself from USA soy. I buy the wax from the source in Iowa. Very cheap, very easy.

BTW, I am a family of 6, and I have better things to spend my money on than the electric company.

Sorry, but I can't stand the light from CFLs and I'm concerned about the mercury. If I broke a bulb, I would panic.

I've noticed the flickering too, and it drives me crazy.

I do plenty of other things for the environment, and I don't see a problem with waiting until a better bulb is created or until the government forces me to switch.

Mid-C Frank:

I can't speak for your friend, but I have to have plenty of light. Dim light gives me a really bad headache. I can't watch tv in the dark either-- the contrast is too great. I do use CFLs where I can, though.

Flourescent lighting is used everywhere. I have a hard time believing people get migraines at home if they don't get them at Duane Reade or at work.

Do these Sylvania bulbs buzz or hum? I have some n:vision bulbs that have a really nice light but they buzz. Yuk.

Hi everyone,
As a semi-"green" electrician, I've looked into this a bit.

Flickering:
You cannot notice. Gone are the days of flickering fluorescent lights. Older ballast/light systems needed a starter and cycled as low as 60 cycles per second. This is similar to older computer monitors BTW. That was bad. Newer systems cycle at speeds upto 12,000 cycles per second. Your eyes and brain have no idea -this is why (if you are sensitive to light) you want to get high quality CFLs. After years of working with many people on their lighting issues, I have no doubt that most people will let pre-conceived notions determine their reactions to almost anything. As some people on this thread have indicated, most people really have no idea when they are under high quality CFLs. These bulbs are different than the ones you get at Home depot or Ikea -those bulbs are cheap for a reason. ;)
For the record, my wife and I are perfectly happy using both high quality and Home Depot CFLs.

Toward the end of lifetime, some CFLs may flicker -I assume this is an electronic failure i.e. part of what makes the bulb die after 5-7 years (I have some that have lasted in my kitchen and dining room for over 12 years and don't flicker, but they are old-school/solid/expensive CFL bulbs -made by "Satco" BTW).

If you really have flickering problems, get an electrician to check your voltage. Seriously!

Buzz:
You either have cheapo bulbs (these don't necessarily cost less) ...or you may have voltage problems in your house.

BTW, Household voltage should be between 116-124 volts depending on where you live (most stuff will work OK down to 104 volts).

Light quality:
Get "warm" lights. Cheapo bulbs are usually the ones that look so bad ... they are typically "cool white". Yeck! You get what you pay for.

Efficiency:
CFLs use about about 23-28% of the electricity of Incandescent bulbs (more or less depending on design). Good ones will last a long time. Again, I am not talking about HD or ikea. Those are crap and will not last 5 years or whatever.
As many people here have attested: replace all your bulbs and cut your bills baby! Yeah, this really works!!!

Dimmers:
Just so you know: MOST DIMMERS DO NOT SAVE ENERGY regardless of whether you are using incandescent or CFL bulbs. Unless they are expensive electronic dimmers that very few people buy (expect to pay $50 ). Dimmers suck off wattage and dissipate it as heat. It's the same amount of electricity whether dimming or not.

Disposal/mercury impact:
Take CFLs to places that will recycle the mercury.
I am not sure whether the mercury in a CFL balances the mercury that is dug up with coal/oil/etc. -but I think it does.
Using the national average for the amount of mercury used in energy generation, CFLs DO make sense. That will vary depending on 3 factors that I can think of:
1). Quality. The longer the CFL lasts, the less mercury impact it has.
2). Use: If you turn CFLs on and off (a lot), you will wear them out more quickly -thus producing more mercury.
3). Energy source: Coal produces a lot of the mercury we are worried about. If your electricity source is coal, CFLs will save tremendously on mercury. If it is solar, CFLs will use more mercury assuming the recycling process is not 100% efficient and that you occasionally break one.
*HOWEVER*, recycled CFLs = recycled mercury, so if you don't break them and you do recycle them, CFLs will use significantly less mercury under almost any circumstances. Energy use from coal does NOT recycle mercury, so that stuff goes straight into the water and air.

As for "mercury poisoning" from a broken CFL: way over-rated. Look at a hoax website like snopes.com. Or check with the EPA: Just use common sense: open a window, sweep up, use tape to get tiny bits of glass, wipe with damp cloth.


The one legitimate downside to CFLs is this: Some CFLs take longer to warm up and come to full brightness (maybe 20 seconds). Especially in colder weather! I have found that the spirals light nice and bright immediately, *but* the R-38s (the ones you use in track and recessed lighting) take longer to come to full brightness. Sorry to say that I don't know why the bulb style makes a difference...


More shopping places:
Normal/variety:
http://www.e3living.com/catalog/121?gclid=CPr1vYqMpJQCFQNHFQodejwPtg

Smaller sizes/"candle" style, etc.:
http://www.buylighting.com/Dimmable-Compact-Fluorescent-s/113.htm

Hope that helps y'all,
Greg

I'd have to agree with some of the folks here regarding the general ghastly lighting quality of CFLs. Similar to old-fashioned fluorescent lights in their ability to sicken a room and its inhabitants.

Add me to the list of folks for whom CFLs cause sickening migraine headaches.

I'm not really sure what to say the deal is with people complaining about the flicker. As stated before, incandescents also flicker, and basically just about every work place, coffee shop, department store, you've ever been in used a florescent flickering tube, and I don't see you running out of those. So please spare us.

Now the whole quality of light issue, now that has more merit. That being said, CFLs are available in multiple temperature ranges. Pick the right one for your situation: cooler temp for task lighting, warmer for general lighting. Easy peasy.

As for how much a cfl reduses your carbon footprint, i don't have numbers off the top of my head, but its considerably more than you expect. And, as a group effort the energy savings easily add up to a reduction of the country's carbon foot print immensely.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/home_improvement/4215199.html?page=1:

It's amazing how many people here refuse to believe that, just because fluorescent lighting doesn't give them headaches or make them disoriented, some people actually have extreme sensitivity to them. Long before the fluorescent lighting fade my dad has had hyper-sensitivity to most forms of fluorescent lighting, especially in really bright spaces like supermarkets or costco, to the degree that the disorientation has been bad enough he's had to leave such places...as I've gotten older I have developed similar (thankfully milder, for now) sensitivities. CFLs don't bother me that much, and I'm not opposed to having them in low-use rooms such as the bathroom, but as for the rest of my spaces, i'll hold out and find other ways to save energy.

Really though, people need to think outside of their own experiences and realize that some folks are, shocking as it may be, different from them!

I have to disagree with this statement:

"you're doing something you know you shouldn't."

I haven't found any CFLs that I like enough to use, yet. I have no doubt that as this industry strives to match light quality with incandescents, sooner or later products will come on the market that I and others do like, and will use. In the meantime, I feel comfortable using incandescent bulbs.

I look forward to seeing more CFL reviews and ratings here on AT.

They have come a long way, just last week I did not notice a friend had replaced her bath vanity bulbs with fancy warm round CFLs, until she told me. Much better light these days, apparently.

The only place in my home where we don't use CFLs is the bathroom because we have those dressing room style lights, so we have 2 40-watt and 1 20-watt in a row, sadly. But we're moving next year, so... hehe

Popular Mechanics did a side-by-side test of about a dozen of the leading brands of CFLs, based on the light warmth, time to warm up, and brightness. The n:vision -- which are sold at Home Depot -- were the overall winner. They come in bulbs that have another glass bulb outside, so use where you can see the bulb, so if you're hating on the coil, no need to see it.

I loathe CFLs - the light is always an utterly ghastly warm yellow (Optometrist indicates that I'm quite sensitive to colours.). Anywhere where I have to do anything involving colours (i'm a photographer), I use the GE Reveal bulbs - I MUCH prefer the light. When they make these available in a CFL format, I will be a happy girl.

I have a different issue that no one else has mentioned--the CFLs don't fit in my overhead lights! I really wasn't sure how I'd feel about the light, but I thought I'd give it a shot. they didn't fit--too wide at the end, I couldn't get the light cover back on.

The Ikea CFLs aren't that bad, but they're far from perfect. They at least have a thin plastic coating that gives a little bit more warmth / color than most, but I still don't use them anywhere except closets, bathrooms, basement, or any place where I rarely use light. Like others here, the *color* just drives me insane. I can't stand them in any room that's frequently used.

I had that kind of CFL:s back in Finland! They had a funny surface – bit like rubber. And lit slowly. But this was a few years back, so these will propably work so much better.

I like a nice no-no lightbulb glow too, and I firmly ascribe to connections between mood and lighting, but not using ANY CFLs is kind of dumb, y'all. I still use the old ones on a couple of smaller ambient lamps (30 watt and lower), but I put in CFLs for my larger workhorse lamps. The combination of the two keeps the lighting delicate enough for my sissy eyeballs. Meanwhile, I just replaced my first CFL. It lasted 4 years! And my electric bill has dropped by 15 bucks.

I've been using CFL's for more than 10 years already and have found the recent debate exaggerated in many areas. Sure there are positives and negatives with using CFL's, but with the energy savings, life, and color correction available (if you use the full spectrum type) it seems most of us should agree there are very practical uses for CFL's. Carbon footprint and global warming aside, the energy savings originally motivated me and I've never looked back.

For new users, I would always warn to be sure of size compatibility with your fixtures, and if you care at all about glare, eyestrain, color appearance - consider getting used to the full spectrum types. These are whitish/blue and take some adjusting, but personally I love them.

FYI I've found local stores carry only the most standard and simple types of CFL's. Specialty lighting providers seem to always be up on the newest items, and the past 2 years I've found excellent products via a company called Bulborama -

http://www.bulborama.com

CFL's are here: http://www.bulborama.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=4

P.S. - I still use halogen and incandescent in some areas, but nearly 100% CFL's in my home.

http://www.productdose.com/article.php?article_id=1142

in some cases LED might be even better, if you don't mind something slightly dimmer.

They use less electricity and last longer. They also have no toxic chemcals like the aforementioned mercury.

Like biofuel, (which still releases CO2 and is reliant on corn, one of the most destructive land crops I can think of), once again we're betting on the wrong green technologies.

rojahdee, thank you for posting - I've also used CFLs for about 10 years, and the first quarter I had 100% conversion, my electricity bill dropped so low the company sent someone to check I'd not been up to monkey tricks with their meter!

While I can't comment on the migraine issue, I do think we need to see an end to the name-calling on both sides and see some proper scientific double-blind testing done - this issue is up there with the debate about EM smog from wireless devices, we need answers, not opinions in this supposedly "scientific" age!

Finally, colour of light - erm, I use lampshades anyway, so I really don't get that issue, even the coldest light warms up nicely inside anything with a warm coloured fabric, glass or what have you?

with incandescent bulbs, we've always only had to know about one thing: wattage.

in order to buy the right CFL for your needs and taste, you need to know 2 things: wattage and temperature.

wattage still equals brightness but temperature now is how you shop for color. forget manufacturers color names "cool", "soft", "warm", "daylight" etc. forget it. it's about as useful as a textile being listed as "beige". know your temp and you'll get the right color.

a CFL with a temp of 2,800 Kelvin or less is going to be a "warm" light.
most of the cheap ones are like 4,000 degrees Kelvin. no wonder why everyone hates them.

here: http://www.lightbulbsdirect.com/page/001/CTGY/A-Shape is a bunch available in "warm" color temps and in wattages comparable to as low as incandescent 25w.

almost all CFLs have the color temp somewhere on the packaging and I'm sure as consumers start buying them more, and as 2014 approaches, the whole color temp issue will become more known.