apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

i have to say, i have nothing against the Clutter Cowgirl whatsoever, but seriously, are people THAT lazy and/or incompetent to clean and organize their own apartment? i dont get it.

Decluttering in my views, should be a personal experience. I know why I keep these torn sneakers, Jeni can only suggest ways to organize them. I would be really reluctant to have someone go thru my stuff.

But this is a capitalist system. If there is a need for it, someone will find a way to make money of it

Hey, whatever works. Some people find it hard to emotionally detach themselves from stuff. (That used to be me before I moved to NYC and realized I had to let go.) And some people (for example, my husband) do not care if total strangers see everything they own--while to me, that's a nightmare.

here's the thing- i went through a bit of a mental funk about 6 months ago and i kind of let my apartment go. clutter everywhere, and i'm a compulsively neat person. my best friend had to come over and basically start cleaning and purging to snap me out of it. so i get it, i get that people's apartments can get messy. but i never felt the need to PAY some one $55 AN HOUR to tell me i needed to throw out my old magazines or whatever.

you are so right. capitalism at its finest. maybe im just bitter that i didnt think of it myself...

youre right, fiona. my sister's apartment is a clutter nightmare - every time i go over there i have to fight the urge to just indiscriminately start putting stuff in big garbage bags.

hey, hang on a minute...is it wrong to charge a family member???

There are any number of reasons people have clutter and may need professional help with it. Not everyone adheres or even likes minimalist style. I know I do not adhere to it and only admire it from a far.
Also I did not move to NYC immediately post-college, meaning that I had "stuff" that wasn't total crap, and I am became used to living in a place that was larger than a dorm room. Also I was informed by my parents that I could not use their basement and barn as long term storage (although I do have a dining room set and a coffee and end table in the basement right now.) People move to NYC and into tiny apartments thinking- oh this is just a stepping stone, I will find find a bigger place/lose the roommate/move out of the city/afford a bigger place, but that never happens. Often times renters are left with tiny closets and limited storage options and of course cost is always a factor.
Also in NYC people pay people to do the darndest things. Think about the people who have dogs, but never walk them, because they pay a dog-walker to do so 3 times a day. Or the stay-at-home mom who has a full-time live-in nanny. Or the working mom who has 2 children and 3 nannies and a weekend baby-sitter and is not a celebrity Talk about taking a village! NYC is a very strange place this way- the service economy here is incredible.
Although a Gemini, I am seriously considering giving the Cowgirl a call to help me if I decide to move later on in the summer.

The 'before' and 'after' pictures crack me up. Before - a nightstand with papers on it. After - a nightstand without papers on it. Yeah, I'm bitter that I'm sitting at work when I could be standing with one hand on my hip, tapping my toe, pointing at offending clutter & saying "out. now." and getting $55 an hour.

it's my dream job.

and people... i'll do it for FIFTY!

Why so judgmental about people with clutter? I work about 90 hours a week (medical resident), my husband about 70. What do I do in the one or so hour a day I'm not sleeping or working? Spend time with my son. I would LOVE to spend an entire weekend organizing my home, but I barely have enough time or energy to put dishes in the dishwasher. Someone like this is made for someone in my situation.

Corey, that's a good point. I know someone who is very judgmental about people who use house cleaners, because her mom was a single parent, worked two jobs, raised 5 kids, and had a spotless house. More power to her mom, but not everyone is capable of that, and some people would choose to spend time doing things other than scrubbing their sink. To me, it's the same concept as hiring a housecleaner, dropping your clothes off at the laundry to be washed, or any service like that.

This girl could retire early if she gets a call from that compulsive eBay mom with the cucumber.

I also was impressed with the dollar amount per hour - but only assumed that she is very good at what she does. Housekeeping and life organizing are two entirely different things.

At work I am responsible for a large filing system, among other things. Its structure has been in place for at least 100 years. It has adapted over the years, but it was designed to be reliable and have a logical place for everything. The person who implemented it was a genius. If they paid him/her $165 (even in 1890's), we have still gotten an incredible bargain over the past 100 years.

I often wonder if I could come up with such a bullet-proof filing system myself. I certainly have not for my own living at home. If someone can come in and TRULY make the clutter organized for the longterm, that is a good bargain. I assume she did not just do some light housecleaning. A housecleaner temporarily fixes your problem by cleaning up, and you can get one to clean your whole house for that amount of money. But you will have to pay for this week after week. My guess is that she implemented a filing or storage system for what was causing the clutter and helped to decide what SHOULD be out on these surfaces. Hard decisions to make for some. If she can change your life for the long haul, that is easily worth $165.

oh dear, i would HAPPILY contribute to send the clutter cowgirl to crazy ebay mom.

sorry, she's not "crazy"... just not sane.

BTW, I didn't mean to equate this service to housekeeping. I know it's a different service, but I think the overall concept is the same. Almost all of us pay people to perform services that we could theoretically do ourselves for free.

I completely understand that sometimes it takes an objective second person to help organize/throw away. If you don't have a friend or relative to help (or are too embarrassed to ask), or if you've let it go too long, $165 is reasonable on many levels.

You know, I would have loved to have a mediator around for my then-boyfriend's clutter when I first moved in with him. I would have paid $165 for a reasonable adult to come over and help us out. The kid could *not* throw anything away. He had a prefectly-logical "reason" for keeping old ticket stubs, papers from middle school, old VHS tapes, anything... He never paid any bills on time because he couldn't find the mail, not because he was broke. I once lost a paycheck in his desk-mess. There was no space for me to live in that house, and eventually I broke up with him and left.

i hear what you're saying, fiona. i drop off my laundry because i dont have a laundry room in my building and the nearest laundry place in my neighborhood is drop-off only. but it's not $55 and hour. as for the housecleaning, if i didnt have a studio, and if i wasnt convinced that no one could do a better job than me, i would totally use that service.

i guess my point is that while i dont have a laundry room, i DO have the cabability to straighten up the place every once in a while. im talking about the photos on her site that rr referenced - there's no reason one cant tidy up a nightstand or a shelf. is that worth $165?

aside from the 'organizational tools' she implements, is this woman just indulging people's bad habits? i dont know.

and corey, i exclude you, or anyone else who has the inclination but not the time to tidy. sadly, i always seem to have plenty of time to clean. and im not bragging about that either.

My point is - where is the stuff going after it is off the nightstand? It looked as if it was a huge pile of paperwork. Paperwork that can't just be brushed into the rubbish or set on another surface. It is possible she set up a whole filing system so that this person never has to stack those papers on the nightstand again. And that means she will never have to tidy up that mess again. If only the Cowgirl had provided captions...

A friend showed me how to create a filing system on the back of my front door. Now, instead of receipts plagueing my every pocket, wallet, and backpack, they go directly into these sleeves. All ready for tax time and I have no mess.

Yes, anyone can tidy. And we can all try to organize. But I am humble enough to know there are many things to learn, even about something seemingly as simple as cleaning. To go through the experience of creating your own filing systems could take countless weeks, months, etc; whereas a true professional will come in and lay down the law in a few minutes. And possibly change who you are in the process.

I suppose this falls into that area where either people believe there is something to be learned from a professional, or they think it is hogwash. Just like when someone will pay incredible amounts of money to visit a shrink to help solve their problems, while others would consider that a waste and consult their friend/mother/self.

touche, matt.

i will now shut up.

Squixan,

Maybe you have found your calling. If it sounds like your dream job, maybe you should consider it.

i suppose there are worse things than capitalizing on my mild OCD. perhaps the clutter cowgirl could use some competition.

matt, if i take the plunge, you'll get a consultation on the house. not that you necessarily NEED one...

There's a programme on one of the British channels called Life Laundry and its premise is about going into really badly cluttered houses and taking their owners in hand. It always seems that the people actually do have something wrong on a psychological level - not that they're crazy but that there is usually something going on in their lives that makes them hoard. Like a family member died and they couldn't get rid of their stuff, and then the hoarding obsession grew from there. It's a really good programme and they really do seem to help the people they show.

That's a deal! And then you can come and look at our 100 year old filing system at work - we're still ironing out the bugs ;)

I survived a decluttering and have lived to tell the tale. We live in a 600sq ft apt with one closet for 10 years, and my good friend Ed gently nudged me to get rid of alot and got down to bare bones. Got me to get rid of everything including furnture I was just living with. Granted I did part with some beloved things, but me and my kid have much more space, cleaner lines, and less stuff to clutter up. I even considering doing again for the paper hastle that I'm not managing well.

kmcd,
there's a similar show (perhaps a rip-off of 'life laundry') called 'how clean is your house?', with these two middle-aged british women who come in and just go to town. they are very entertaining. the first time i watched it, it was on at 11pm on a sunday night. it got me so motivated to clean that i was up until 1am scouring my bathtub. sad but true.

the ebay mom would be a perfect candidate.

yep, I've seen it. That's a British show as well, and they did a series of it in the States. They also did one where they cleaned up really dirty people, which was DISGUSTING! But the idea is the same, though Kim and Aggie aren't psychologists and the Life Laundry do have one who talks to the people about why they hoard. K&A just give out and then get the rubber gloves on!

From watching both shows it seems that it sometimes just takes that sort of intervention to make people see they can keep things in order if they're shown how.

did you see the one with that woman who let her dog poop in the bathroom??? good lord!

these homes are so disgusting, but at the same time, you cant look away.

i just took this thread in a bad direction.

I think it depends a lot on personality and habits. My family is not at all organized. I didn't learn how to organize, and it didn't come to me naturally. (I was always the kid who genuinely lost her homework.) I've had to learn from others over the years (including my insanely organized college roommate, who somehow managed to like me despite my clutter). I've come a long way, baby, but I could see how someone could need help. I think it also depends on what you consider a lot of money. I'm about to spend what I consider a lot of money to have a closet system installed, but I think it's worth it. I could do it myself, I guess, but I think I am benefiting from a professional's take on the situation, even if they aren't actually organizing my belongings.

i think matt's right. if you notice on the pictures with the nightstand, the after picture does have some sort of filing going on underneath.

i think thats a great investment. where are you getting your closet system from? is it portable (if you rent?)

filing "system"? sorry to be such a pessimist, but thats a trip to 'staples'.

sorry tara, i see you didnt actually use the word 'system' - i wasnt trying to be obnoxious with my quotes. my bad.

that's the thing, its not only "a trip to staples." setting up and maintaining a filing/organization system is not an easy thing for everyone. there's a reason why 43folders.com, getting things done, moleskines, hipster pda's, etc are so popular right now.

Setting up a filing system; easy
Following a filing system; hard

Some people need help with this issue, and some don't. There's no point in criticizing someone who needs the help; just be grateful if you're not one of them, and get help with the things you do need help with.

Hey squixan, what was so disgusting about the dog? Did it not flush afterwards?

I do agree with Joan though. You obviously don't see the need for help in this area and that's ok but I don't see the point in arguing the case against it. That would seem to suggest that a lot of what AT stands for is lost on you. Maxwell does exactly this kind of thing (and more) in his line of work and a lot of what this site is about is to help ppl eliminate the extraneous stuff in their lives that hold them down or make their homes an uncomfortable place to live to the extent that it affects their lives in profoundly negative ways.

aargh! i find it impossible to file. Not that i don't file. I do. But how do you organize the folders? What categories do you use? How many? For instance, after saving zillions of magazines for one little product that i liked i started ripping them out and putting them into a shopping folder. but then what about places i want to travel? should i put that in the same folder? should i put that in my travel folder which is mostly frequent flier stuff? what about stuff i want to buy while traveling???!!
I go through this torture weekly.

I once took a quiz in some magazine called how organized are you. My result (and this is the only time a magazine quiz surprised me) was that I spent too much time organizing and reorganizing and that I should take that time and use it to learn another language or something. ouch.

Organizing is a skill. My daughter has it. I don't. It's not just about cleaning out closets. She finds space and creates storage for things where there isn't any. She's not doing it professionally, but she could. For one year she had to fit her family of three people and two pets in two small bedrooms in my house. In the 8x12 room she shared with her husband she had their clothes, bed, an entertainment center, a mini-fridge, computer and desk, coffee maker and assorted other items and it was attractive. Not everyone could do that. It goes without saying that now that they're in a two bedroom apartment it looks like they have all the space in the world.

If she was charging, she'd be worth the money. Luckily for me, I have her for free.

ODC hoarding is a mental illness, though the study of it is in its infancy. Sure, there's a continuum from messy and disorganized to buried in stuff that creates a fire hazard. Broadly, there are three kinds of hoarding -- regular hoarding (stuff others would consider of little value), garbage hoarding and animal hoarding.

I have a friend who could use a professional decluttering. No friend can see her through this because of her resistance and defenses, but the clutter seriously interferes with her quality of life. For example, big, spacious house, but there is no place in or near the kitchen to sit and have a cup of coffee because there's stuff piled up randomly everywhere, so she sits on the stairs. I don't think she's a hoarder at all (although someone walking into her place may think so). I think it's a sort of juvenile rebellion against very tidy, orderly parents that she never outgrew.

you are right, jaime pup. i've been overly critical which is unfair. didnt mean to offend anyone! the purpose of AT isnt lost on me though. i get so much out of this sight, including learning to keep an open mind ;)

OCD HOARDING
I agree with Cornfrost; it's a horrible disease. I imagine it could be quite crippling. My hope is that more research is done in this field.

ORGANIZING IS A TALENT
Pat said this, and it's true. I am very good at it--books by Dewey Decimal system, CDs by genre and then subcategorized in two CD files, my own personal files in a trunk in a color-coded system. I'm not as good as Pat's daughter, but I always had a pleasant, organized, neat apartment.

Then I got married! My husband is not organized at all, and it's hard for me to see his desk, which is at the entrance of my apartment. He tries, really, but it's not in him.

If I could convince him to hire a professional organizer to teach him how to deal with his stuff, it would be a miracle for both of us. I won't teach him because I'm too close and emotionally involved with the situation. My husband doesn't want to spend the money. Oh well...

I've known slews of people who can't find their passports or other important documents--without being OCD hoarders, they're just not organized. It's not in them. Here is where a professional organizer fits in.

Wish me luck, perhaps someday my husband will hire a person to teach him. Or else, we'll move so that he can have his own office and I can close the door. That said, I love my husband dearly and would not trade him for anything--even with the mess that comes with him. He puts up with a lot from me in other ways.

As someone who's always teetering on the edge of a clutter disaster, I'm kind of taken aback by the judgmental tone of this conversation. Some people are born with the ability to organize and some aren't. Some of us hang onto stuff that others would quickly get rid of. And I've tried many times on my own to set up organizational systems (including many "a trip to Staples") but you know, if they aren't really thought out and they're not easy to follow and fit in seamlessly in your life, that stuff just becomes more crap cluttering up your life.

The other point I'd like to make is that mood and depression often play a role. When my depression is acting up, the whole place goes to hell in a handbasket and stuff just starts piling up. Then when it eases, I look around and feel like I'm drowning in crap. And then it's a huge job. Don't judge unless you've walked in my shoes.

Oh, and I'm a Virgo too, doesn't necessarily make you neat, just anal.

ruth, if thats directed at me, point taken - see me previous comment ;)

I grew up in a three bedroom house, one bathroom, with eight siblings, one mother and step-father.
I honestly do not agree with those who are sloppy, unorganized, etc., saying it is because they don't have time to clean up or keep things neat - that they want to spend time with their children, or whatever the excuse is. It is just that, an excuse. No one lives in clutter or mess unless they want to do so. My mother cleaned, cooked, did laundry (lots of diapers) and worked outside the house as a waitress. And there was never a mess or clutter in our house.

Say what you will, an excuse is an excuse is an excuse.

Looking forward to the nasty responses.

squixan - you're ok with me

CR - warn your niece not to read this thread

Jamie Pup - great memory!

tara - thanks for mentioning 43folders - just checked it out and it's a new favorite, I can tell. Also, I'm a big fan of Getting Things Done by David Allen, which you also mentioned.

CR- heheh,

"I haff detailed files"

Now the first person who posts here to tell me who said that in what movie and I'll buy you a drink the next time we have an AT social.

can you give us a hint? whats the genre?

I'm guessing an old black & white movie, during World War II?

um... 'the sound of music'?

CR, I'm sorry, but I do think a medical resident can actually use the excuse that they don't have enough time. I don't understand why people get so upset about this topic, either. It seems so weird to me to get irate that people say they don't have time to clean or be organized. Unless you are living with that person, who cares? If only we got this worked up about world hunger.

CR, I don't think it's about time, I think it's about priorities and ability and inclination. In order for me to be more organized would involve acting in what for me is a very deliberate and kind of artifical way. It's not easy to change your personality. I'm not saying I'm proud of being messy and clutterprone but I'm also saying that you probably have habits or inabilities that I could be equally disbelieving and judgmental about as you are about lack of neatness.

Hmm, genre would be a dead giveaway I think but CR has the right idea with the accent but set in much more modern times.

Here's an oblique hint - there's a link to a character called Shayne Lacey in A Home of Their Own

okay, so i just tried to cheat, unsuccessfully. i googled shayne lacey / a home of our own...

a character played by edward furlong?...

i have no clue.

Yep - Edward Furlong

I was thinking of the second time the character said it and that's all he said but the first time he completed it with "on the human anatomy"

i never wouldve got that without cheating, and i pride myself with having an extensive knowledge of useless but impressive entertainment trivia.

good one, jaime pup. i needed something to lighten the mood. looks like i started something smoldering, if not explosive.

Yes, I'm trying to lighten up because I am thinking various nasty thoughts about how how it's easy for some people to talk when their mothers (and isn't it always the mothers) obviously could have used some help from children and step-father. Hmmrrph. Now I'm leaving this thread for the day. (And I'll add that I'm average when it comes to organization, and I'm a hypocrite for getting worked up when I lectured everyone else about irateness. ;)

peace and love everybody, peace and love!

Sorry squixan, I meant that Ed Furlong is the link to the movie and the character that made the quote. Not the actual quoter.

Peace out

I'm surprised that on this site (where shows like Mission--Organization and Clean Sweep are either heralded for their inspiration or as sheer guilty pleasure) that people would take offense to professional organizers or clutter consultants of any sort. Um, who do you think is doing the break-through decluttering on those shows? Do you hold the same disdain for professional laundries? Restaurants? Tax preparers?

I also think that general "housekeeping" and a serious clutter problem are two separate issues entirely. And I also think that for every super-mom capable of keeping a job and a mega-family in perfect tidy working order, there is at least one who could use some help, professional or otherwise.

I think solving a serious clutter problem (and I know of what I speak) takes ANY help you can get, be it from a professional, an understanding significant other, or a hard@$$ friend.

i am sure most oftenly many of us who are in the groove of cluttered rooms ,when we resolve to stop procrastinating and start cleaning we are" followed by emotions like " where do i keep this ,hmmm...lets stash away this here for the time being ,ummm...where should this go ,maybe here ...or there ...oh .." Cleaning our own rooms can be a daunting task.Cleaning out for kid sister would pop out a big "no" ,forget other blood realtions.I cant imagine cleaning out for some and not loosing my nerves.
Hats off to cowgirl if she does it without being irritated ,or loosing her cool off.

i am sure most oftenly many of us who are in the groove of cluttered rooms ,when we resolve to stop procrastinating and start cleaning we are faced with questions like "where do i start?" followed by emotions like " where do i keep this ,hmmm...lets stash away this here for the time being ,ummm...where should this go ,maybe here ...or there ...oh .." Cleaning our own rooms can be a daunting task.Cleaning out for kid sister would pop out a big "no" ,forget other blood realtions.I cant imagine cleaning out for some and not loosing my nerves.
Hats off to cowgirl if she does it without being irritated ,or loosing her cool off.

I confess: I am a clutterbug. I can be very organized in some ways, but my home has always typically been a mess. Messy, not dirty. I call my way of dealing with it "pile management." My husband always says he would like to document how many times I have looked at a scrap of paper and moved it to a different pile, only to do the same thing to that very scrap a few weeks or months later. I don't have OCD or any other debilitating mental illness. I guess I could blame it on my mother who struggled to make ends meet and was too exhausted most of the time to teach us housekeeping skills beyond doing our own laundry and making our own meals. We were also very poor -- organizing and cleaning is not a priority if you're wondering how long the food in the closet will last. It's hard to throw any possessions away when you have lived a life of impecuniosity. You feel like these piddly things are precious and you can't throw away something of even the smallest value.

But I'm in my 40s now, so the time is long past for me to get over blaming my upbringing for the way I turned out. So, in order to learn the skills I never acquired as a child or young adult, where can I turn? I just know that when I look at certain items that pile up, I go absolutely blank. Some things I can let go of easily, others I am stymied. I just don't know what to do with them. I also now that there are better remedies for the things I have, but I have very few of those systems in place. I remember what an epiphany it was when my husband put a hook on the wall for our keys. How many years I made myself late for work because I could not locate my apartment keys! Now I always know where they should be. Thank goodness I married a neatnik who helps me in many ways. It's lots of little things like that, where professional organizers come in handy.

People pay tons of cash to work out in expensive gyms and have personal trainers when you can easily stay fit by getting outdoors more often, walking whenever possible, and working out at home with minimal equipment. No one seems to pooh-pooh the idea of personal trainers, yet they make fun of people who need an organizer to help them de-clutter. Go figure.

Diane -

Eloquently put.

I think it's wonderful that there are people out there for whom organizing is so simple and second nature that they can't imagine how anyone would need help to do it.

I am not one of them.

To repeat previous posts: organization is a skill and a talent. Sure, it can be learned--like baking-- but some people seem to have an innate understanding while others may follow the recipe exactly and yet their muffins mysteriously come out like hockey pucks. I have a green thumb. My sister can kill a pothos.

The judgemental air stings a bit. I have plenty of evidence that I'm not lazy. It takes strength and wisdom to know your weaknesses and work with them. If that takes hiring an organizer, so be it.

Life's too short, people. It really doesn't matter if you bring an elegant homemade torte or buy a bottle of wine on the way; the important thing is that you show up to the party and have a good time.

[/end soapbox]

so someone "compulsively neat" doesn't think it's right that an organizer should be paid...

but we all have different strengths and inabilities...

Why shouldn't I pay to get out of MY particular rut?