apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

In all seriousness, how do people afford places like this in NYC? Are salaries that much higher than other places? I live in Richmond, VA and $539,000 can buy you a lovely brick home with 4 bedrooms and a nice yard. I know this because there are several brink ranch homes that I have lusted over in the past and they were out of my price range.

Maintenance seems high too.

Ha, I was just thinking that this sounded like a good deal for NYC. But then, there are those pesky building maintenance fees.

Would be a good deal except for the maintenance fees.

You realize you don't really need 4 bedrooms (I generally sleep in one bed), and are willing to sacrifice space to live in a place where there is so much going on. Obviously this isn't for everyone, and is especially prohibitive for families (hello, suburbs), but there are more than enough people with these priorities that prices are still rising throughout NYC. And yes, salaries are higher.

Top floor apartments on Park Avenue are for heirs and oil tycoons and Vera Wang. Not you! or me.

amt230...I see your point and I agree with you on the priorities issue. I don't NEED 4 bedrooms but if I could afford them one would be the bedroom, one would be the office/sewing room, one would be a guest room and the fourth could be my boyfriend's mancave.

kimg924....this apartment is actually on Park Avenue SOUTH. Which is a far cry, and a large price tag, away from real Park Avenue apartments. A top floor Park Ave apartment would be double/triple the price, at least!

$539k. Well, it is what it is. But what does the $1655 maintenance fee actually cover?

I think the owner of this apartment didn't get the memo that we are in the midst of an economic meltdown on Wall Street and there will not be as many overpaid spreadsheet jockeys searching around for trophy apartments. And this one isn't even a trophy! I can't believe that people are still under the delusion that pie-in-the-sky prices can be sought when there is so much bloodletting in the local economy.

Considering that insane montly maintenance and its decidedly ho hum location in Curry, er, Murray Hill, I think this place is overpriced by at least 150K.

This illustrates one of the reasons I moved away from NYC. I wanted to be able to afford decent housing, and my earning potential isn't great.

There don't seem to be curtains or a shade on the bathroom window. Is the occupant showering for all the world to see? or am I missing something?

This is a nice enough place, but the $1655 maintenance fee? Ouch.

The price is delusional in today's market with Hedge Funds and Brokerage Firms tanking left and right...

...and why do folks cram computers and desks in their bedrooms, but leave the living areas half empty?

Don't buy today.

Does anyone know where I can find that dining room table?

i love when tours come with a plan!

This is why I left NYC.

particlebored: maintenance fees typically cover real estate taxes, fire insurance, liability insurance, water/sewage, maintenance staff (fixing the roof, cleaning the elevators, mopping the lobby), doormen's salaries, heat and hot water, interest payments on the building's underlying loans, etc.

...and when the maintenance is this high, I suspect that the building is paying an underlying lease or mortgage on the land, which is kinda normal for those white-brick Murray Hill buildings.

Yes, there are many, many people who could still afford this apartment in NYC. Average property sells for over $1m in Manhattan. I'm not sure if people get paid more for doing the same things. Manhattan just has a higher concentration of very well paid jobs (banking, law, etc).

It's a testament to prices in D.C. that I too thought this apartment was priced well for the area, excluding the maintenance fees. Places in downtown D.C. don't go for that much less than this...and D.C. is a far cry from New York.

Owner reporting in.

I appreciate all of your comments and I will do my best to respond to your questions.

Yes, you can buy a four bedroom brick house in the suburbs but your house will never be in New York. ;-) New York forever remains New York.

Right, this is Park Avenue South, as someone else mentioned, and not Park Avenue! Prices on the "real" Park Avenue, which is the SAME Avenue, by the way, are much higher.

The maintenance covers payments on the underlying mortgage on the building, real estate taxes, salary and benefits for all the doormen and the super, water, gas, and heat. Electricity is not covered as is usually around $90-100 a month, depending on how much the AC is used. The Liebherr fridge is very efficient, my class A amplifier is not efficient, so you will probably pay less than $90 a month for electricity without the fancy stereo.

You will notice that the tax deductibility (~65% last year, interest and real estate taxes) of the maintenance is quite high compared to other buildings. So, this is a tradeoff. You need less money for the downpayment because of the lower price compared to comparable one bedrooms, but your monthly carrying costs for maintenance are higher but you get higher tax deductibility. It is what it is. Every deal is a deal for somebody.

No, this unit is not overpriced by $150k. Check the comps on the building and report back. I feel our price is in line with other units in this line that have sold and take into account the high floor.

I never said this was a trophy apartment. It is, however, a nice place because of the amount of light and air that you get and the fact that every room has a large window and the bedroom has two large windows because it is a corner unit.

Yes, we shower without any curtains. The views to the East are open. If someone can spot us with a telescope, well, jolly for them. The window steams up three minutes after you start your shower. No big deal.

The desk works better in the bedroom so that the living room appears larger, less cluttered, and more open. This is a New York City tradeoff. Edit, edit, edit. This way, when you have guests over, you have room to move, without some desk sticking out in the middle of the living room.

This is fun! I look forward to more of your observations.

Regards,

Larry

It actually seems priced about right because averages for 1 beds in the hood are around $1000 per square foot and he's lowered the price to reflect for higher maintenance.

Owner again.

Namaka,
I made that dining room table and the four chairs for my wife. The table and chairs are made out of black walnut. It was a lot of work and is not for sale. ;-)

The table opens up to include two extensions so it is useful for dinner parties.

I can hook you up with the plans for the table and chairs if you would like to try to get it built but it would not be cheap.

Regards,

Larry

Well, I hate to break it to you, but there's a whole new reality today. Like, as of this week. You can kiss those old selling/wishing comp prices goodbye. If you thought mortgages were hard to come by before, whoah... you ain't seen nothin' yet. I can just imagine all of the i-bankers that are now suddenly dumping their apartments on the market. The market was slowing but still robust before, but now... look at below!

This is $862 per square feet. Is this normal in New York? I'm in Toronto Canada and even at half the price imo this place is overvalued.

Hejiranyc,
You meant "Look out below!"

I think you meant to say: "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!" ;-)

While I agree that these look like frightening times, I feel that New York has a stable real estate market because the co-op boards trump the banks. The boards can veto a deal AFTER the financing is in place, if the buyer looks like they do not have the financials to make the payments. There is no "no money down", subprime nonsense in Manhattan. Pony up 25% cash or there is no deal.

In co-ops, we're all in it together.

Regards,

Larry

P.S.
Anyway, if the apartment does not sell, we will stay and enjoy the sunshine. It is better than being stuck in a dark hole of an apartment. We have to live somewhere. We are only thinking of moving to get closer to Central Park so we can run more.

Thanks for the support caw261. Yes, the price takes into account the higher maintenance cost.

I can't begin to tell you how many Upper West Side apartments I have looked at that were easily $100-150k over comps. It is a free market economy so they can ask whatever they want.

Regards,

Larry

Yes, but what are the financials on the building?

The building is strong financially. We have good reserves and we have recently refinanced the mortgage on the building, thereby saving a lot of money. While I cannot guarantee anything about what will happen with the maintenance in the future, it is my opinion that we have the financial room to keep the maintenance steady.

Of course, all information related to the building and its finances has to be verified by a buyer's attorney. This is the process of "due diligence", where the buyer's attorney can visit the management company's office, look at all of the documents related to the co-op and make their own assessment about the financials of the building.

The buyer's attorney would then speak to my attorney in drawing up a contract. This is standard operating procedure in New York.

Regards,

Larry

All information I post is deemed reliable but not guaranteed and should be independently verified.

The 539K price isn't bad, but that maintenance is ridiculous! That's a deal breaker...

Definitely very high maintenance fee, and ditto on the Park Ave S vs Park Ave. I work on PAS and I would never live here. I just sold my Greenwich Village apt and the maintenance on it was $660 for a 400 sq ft studio. Just bought/renovated my new Greenwich Village apt, and the maintenance is about $1300 for a little over 1000 sq ft.

The list price is a great deal, but the high maintenance fee is a concern. Have to wonder if it is due to underlying building issues.

If the maintenance were less, the price would be higher. See my previous posts on how this is a tradeoff. If the maintenance were a deal breaker for everybody, our building would be standing empty in the middle of Manhattan. The building is fully occupied so this deal obviously works for some people. Lots of people pay more per square foot to live in Manhattan. Honest.

Regards,

Larry

========================================
OPEN HOUSE THIS SUNDAY - 9/21 - 11:30am-2pm.
407 Park Avenue South, #18B
========================================

We are having an open house on Sunday Sept 21st between 11:30am and 2:00pm. The Ascot is located on the northeast corner of Park Avenue South and 28th street. The entrance of the building is on 28th street. The apartment number is 18B. Please tell the doorman where you are going and he will announce your visit.

Please email us for a private viewing if you can’t make the open house.

No Brokers please.

Agree that the price reflects the higher maintenance. It looks like a great apt. If someone was seriously interested, I would just be sure to review all the board meeting notes, and financials very carefully. Particulary the liabilities, reserves, last maintenance increase(s), age of boiler, etc. There are a lot of components that make up a reasonable price. The building itself is one of them. How does it look outside, how does the lobby and hallways look, strong staff, amenities, etc.

And I completely agree that Manhattan real estate is in a world of it's own still (desireable areas). This apt will sell, no doubt. A true one bedroom for under $1M? It'll go.

The building is stable and well run. We have an excellent management company. The maintenance is due to the underlying costs in the building. The price reflects the maintenance. My maintenance has not gone up in the last few years (I think three years but need to check to be sure) while other buildings in the city have certainly had increases.

GV10003, you did not share with us the costs of that 1000 square feet in the Village. I bet it was not cheap. ;-)

Every deal is a good deal for somebody.

The apartment is close to a lot of good restaurants and food places. Kalustyan's is a great spice store! We're right next to Les Halles, a wonderful French bistro. We're on top of the 6 train! We're walking distance to the GreenMarket at Union Square, Grand Central, and Penn Station. There is lots to like about the neighborhood. Of course, choice of neighborhood is a personal decision.


Regards,

Larry


All information I post is deemed reliable but not guaranteed and should be independently verified.

Your apt is definitely in a great location and has a lot of conveniences. And you only need one buyer. :) I wouldn't be shocked if you had an offer after your open house. It looks like a great started apt. Hopefully all the Wall St mess won't scare people. I don't think it should. Real estate in NY is a whole different world. There is no way someone can get into a respectable co-op if they are not financially sound.

I actually got a great deal on my apt. It was in original, but surprisingly good condition. I was able to salvage the floors, just refinish them and just repaint most of the rooms. I had to gut the bathrooms/kitchen, replace doors/hardware, baseboard, door frames, a/c heating units (150k). I paid just under 1.2M, 40% down, or about $1200/sq ft. I am on a high floor, only 6 units per floor, 1 bed 1 bath, seperate dining alcove (about 10x9) North and West exposure, with open unobstructed uptown, protected (landmarked building) views of ESB, Chrysler, NY Life, ConEd, W Union Sq, Rockefeller, etc. The last 1 bedroom that closed was about 10 floors down, with a good view, but not spectacular, and a mediocre updating, probably 5 years ago and closed for 1.5 M.

The Village is not cheap by any means, but for those who can afford it, they wouldn't live anywhere else. It took me 2 years to find my new apartment because I refused to live anywhere else. I had to be below 14th St, above 8th st, and between 7th ave/University. The only other other place I would consider would be on CPW (below 80th) with direct views of the park, preferably a corner unit with downtown views as well.

I think the maintenance isn't bad once you factor the tax deductions, amenities and location... My coop maintenance fee is $790 for a 545 sq ft apt in Brooklyn. But after tax deductions it's only a $184/month difference.

$184 isn't bad considering my building is a walk up, has no doorman, and is in Brooklyn. Good luck with the sale.

Oh I forgot to mention one thing for people who aren't familiar with NY real estate...

Larry has a balcony, or outdoor space. That is one thing can, wait, WILL sell an apartment in a heartbeat!

Hello GV10003,
Enjoy your apartment! Thanks for posting the details so people reading this thread get a little more information regarding the cost of living in Manhattan. Your place sounds great, you have a lot of space for that location. I love the Village and would not mind living down there. CPW would also be nice. ;-)

I should mention that the buyer does not need to get a jumbo loan in order to buy this apartment. The market for jumbo paper is in tough shape right now. This fact is something to consider when thinking about the trade-off between maintenance and purchase price.

Thanks for the comments regarding the outdoor space. The balcony faces south so your plants will thrive! My wife does a wonderful job with the planters. We bought six nice large zinc planters from France that convey with the apartment if the next owner promises to keep up with the planting schedule! ;-)

By the way, the Nelson Pear lamp also conveys with the apartment.

As for views, you do get some pretty amazing views of the New York Life building from the balcony. I will post some shots on my website. I used to spend time photographing the gargoyles and the gold dome with a telephoto lens. I also have some amazing panoramas from the roof. To the South, I can just see the crane for that incredible, insane glass building on 23rd street popping up to the level of the ConEd building.

As O'Henry said:

'New York will be a great place - if they ever finish it.'

Regards,

Larry

Isn't there a bit too much going on for it to be described as minimalist? It's certainly not Pawsonesque, as described.

It's a beautiful apartment and I guess if one has that sort of cash laying around in the first place then yeah they could go to Brooklyn and find a better deal getting a bigger space and owning a condo...As for the couple or someone looking to buy a place and must come up with a down payment LOL..get real...

Also what is staying in the apartment and what is going when you sell it?

And last, why are you selling this fabulous place?

Hello Sfdoddsy,
Yes, you are right, there is too much going on for it to be considered minimalist or Pawsonesque. Unfortunately, real life intruded on the minimalism. The apartment used to be much more sparsely furnished, without the cabinet for the vinyl records, or the whole stereo setup, or even the large television. I admit to having messed up my original minimalist idea, due to other interests. How can one live without music and film?

For a look at a real Pawson room see here:

http://www.johnpawson.com/architecture/residential/pawsonhouse1994

Notice the beautiful floor planks made out of solid pieces of Douglas Fir, that stretch from the front of the house to the back of the house, unbroken by any cuts. Those floor beams were so long they had to be trucked in at night to get them through the intersections. The marble counter-top that also stretches from the front of the house to the back is one piece. This counter-top was so heavy that I believe it threatened the structure of the house. Also, notice how all of the walls appear to float above the floors, by the use of recessed moldings.

I suppose I do not have enough money, space, or self-control to pull off a real minimalist apartment in Manhattan. I just don't have any room to hide all of the stuff that comes with modern life. I am unable to live with just a few pieces of rectilinear furniture that correspond exactly with the lines of the room.

In my defense, I tried to come up with a few good surfaces, by plastering the ceiling myself (on stilts), in order to get rid of the horrible popcorn ceiling that had been sprayed up there. Time to remove the popcorn ceiling: 3 hours. Time to apply eight five-gallon buckets of joint compound: probably two months, on and off. I could not lift my arm over my head when I was done. The result is amazing, in my opinion. Producing a flat ceiling on a concrete slab is difficult. Simple is hard.

I took out all of the moldings and installed recessed moldings at the bottom of the walls in the living room and bedroom in order to get this floating look I described above. This turned out to be another difficult job. Moldings are used in order to hide the imperfections that always exist between the wall and the floor. Take away those moldings and you are faced with the incredibly difficult task of trying to make two planes meet perfectly. Again, the simplest thing turns out to be the most difficult thing. That is what minimalism is about.

I suppose I gave up in exhaustion after my changes in the apartment. ;-) It was a learning experience and I have a better idea what it must take to try to produce a few good surfaces, even with my humble attempts.

Pawson is a genius and his work is beautiful and pure.

Of course, anything can be ruined:

http://nymag.com/nymetro/realestate/vu/14910/


Regards,

Larry

Hello DeeCee,
Brooklyn is Brooklyn. Manhattan is Manhattan. ;-) Neither is better, they're just different. People enjoy living in both places.

Whoever buys has to come up with the down payment. That's just the way the game is played. Nobody ever said it would be easy.

==============
Stays in the apartment
==============
That Nelson pear sconce in the living room.
The six planters on the balcony railing and the other
plant rack in the corner.
The white table in the kitchen and the two aluminum stools.
The dresser, if the buyer wants it, otherwise it will be donated.

======================
Unsure, depends on our next place
=======================
The table and two chairs on the balcony.

=========
Goes with us
=========
Everything else, including
the stereo, including the speakers, all components, the CDs, and the vinyl record collection. ;-)
The TV.
The desk and file cabinets.
The bed.
All the books in the closet.
The little art deco tables.
My dining room table and four chairs.
The credenza.
Anything else I have not mentioned as staying.

My wife and I have decided to move closer to Central Park so we can run there more often. It's as simple as that.

Cheers,

Larry

Manhattan prices are as high as they are for a reason. If people weren't willing to pay, the prices wouldn't exist. Those who can't afford it, rent...or live in Brooklyn, Queens, or NJ.

Hope you get the price you want Larry, and even more.. I hope you find what you want. Please post pictures when you do. I am curious to see the upgrades!

I am still trying to unpack all my boxes still, after 3 months. So I'll be planning on posting some before and after pictures.

Phew! Thanks for reminding me of one of the reasons I left nyc. Nice apt for the most part, but what a headache! Good luck to whoever bites the bullet.

After living there for 15 years and how having been away for almost 4, I'm happy having nyc as a place to visit.

Hello GV10003,
Thanks for the kind words. We'll see what the market brings us. Yes, post some before and after pictures. I would love to see what you have done with the 1000 sq feet. Remember, eBay is your friend when dealing with excess stuff. Housing Works is also your friend.

As for those who continually slam New York and tell us how happy they are for having left, well, E.B. White said it better than I ever could, in his essay: "Here is New York",

"But the city makes up for its hazards and deficiencies by supplying its citizens with massive doses of a supplementary vitamin -- the sense of belonging to something unique, cosmopolitan, mighty and unparalleled."

"It is a miracle that New York works at all. The whole thing is implausible."

"The city is like poetry: it compresses all life ... into a small island and adds music and the accompaniment of internal engines."

Regards,

Larry

Hello,
A few links regarding the dining room table and chairs that I built.

The design for the table is from Kim Carleton Graves's book: "Dining Tables". See this link

http://www.carletonwoodworking.com/classesourbook.html

Kim is a hard working Brooklyn furniture maker, a great guy, and an excellent teacher. See more about his shop and furniture making classes here:

http://www.carletonwoodworking.com/carleton.html

The design for the chair is from Jeff Miller's excellent book on chairmaking, here:

http://www.amazon.com/Chairmaking-Design-Jeff-Miller/dp/1561581585

Jeff is a furnituremaker from Chicago. You can see more of his work here:

http://www.furnituremaking.com/

I lost my access to shop space a few years ago and I miss it! Maybe some day I will figure out a way to share a little shop space with someone in Brooklyn so I can get back into building again. There never seems to be enough time though and cabinetmaking is a tough business.


Regards,

Larry

"Those who can't afford it, rent...or live in Brooklyn, Queens, or NJ."

GV10003, your blanket generalization is just not true. Some of us who can afford Manhattan choose to live in Brooklyn.

Hello,

Here in Madrid (Spain) apartments are a little more cheaper but not so much in the center, and we haven,t that view, only in photos in the wall. It,s a very bright place, and have nice views and it,s in NY, the best place in the world....

Could I ask where you found the white table and unit next to it (in the kitchen)? I just moved into a new apartment with a long empty wall, and that's exactly what I've been looking for!

Hello,
The table is UTBY bar table from IKEA

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S69843456

There is a version of it that does not have a shelf in the middle so the stools fit underneath it. I have to say it is a great solution and it is something my wife tracked down. We had to pay extra to get it shipped as the local store did not have it.

You might mutter UTBY, or something similar, under your breath when putting the table together. There is a neat way of assembling it so that it is backwards. ;-) Just look closely at the pictures to see if the small holes should face up or down when bolting it together.

By the way, that table conveys with the apartment. The stools, which were from Crate and Barrel, 24” spin barstools, also convey.

See:

http://www.crateandbarrel.com/family.aspx?c=900&f=2617&q=stool&fromLocation=Search&DIMID=400001&SearchPage=1

While we are on the subject of the kitchen, I have to put in a recommendation for the Liebherr CS1601 fridge. It is wonderful! I am depressed at the thought of having to leave it behind. Due to the weak dollar, that fridge is now about $3800 to replace!


Regards,

Larry

A few more comments on the kitchen.

This is a kitchen that can be used for cooking! My wife cooks almost every night and the fact that this kitchen has a window and a lot of counter space, when using the UTBY table, makes this a good kitchen for people who like to cook.

The fridge has the freezer on the bottom and the fridge on top, so you don't have to bend over to get all of your fresh food.

I installed a high quality recirculating range hood and a Pro level JennAir gas stove which has a convection feature. The appliances have worked out well for us and we have been happy with them.

Hi Larry -

Thanks for the info about the kitchen table - luckily (or unluckily?) I am going to Ikea this weekend so I'll be on the lookout for it. According to the website, they have it in the taller height (41-3/8" high) in the new Brooklyn store.

Are the cabinets and the drawer unit next to the table also Ikea?

Hello,
That's cool if you can find it in the Brooklyn store. They didn't have it in stock when we were trying to get it.

The cabinet and drawers next to the table are part of the kitchen cabinets that came with the apartment. That long open space near the wall was left open for a table, I guess.

Regards,

Larry

After recent news that hit the financial front...uh, good luck man...because a person would have to be nuts or extremely wealthy to buy into a co-op now.

As beautiful as many apartments are in NYC..and having seen some spacious loft-style...when you look at the individuals who buy these apartment 90% of the people are working 24/7 they rarely get to enjoy their homes...in nyc, most people don't even use their kitchens anymore because they eat out all the time...or they are working to live up to their stylish homes.

Hey DeeCee,
You're entitled to your opinion but I do not agree with you. You don't need to be nuts or extremely wealthy to buy this apartment. As others have pointed out, this apartment is basically a starter apartment and is on the cheaper side of the scale, especially considering you can buy it without a Jumbo loan. The world will go on, apartments will be bought and sold.

I am sure any of those spacious loft-style units you mentioned cost far more than my place. Show me a $539k loft space in Manhattan! You have to realize that loft units were originally built as industrial spaces, not for residential use. In the winter, I would rather be warm in a small apartment than cold in some big loft space. I have worked in "loft" spaces in Brooklyn and I was glad to not have to live in them! This apartment is incredibly warm in the winter because of all the sunlight.

People can save a lot of money if they cook 90% of their meals at home and only go out to better restaurants when they want to eat out. There is a lot of interest in food ad cooking, it is not impossible to find someone who wants a good kitchen in which to cook their meals.

Our place is walking distance to the Union Square Green Market so you can get good fresh produce when it is in season. Whole Foods is right next to the Green Market.

New Yorkers who earn relatively high incomes are not working 24/7. Lower income people with three jobs ARE working 24/7 and would not be able to afford this apartment.

Anyway, we are still having an Open House today. Here are the details:

========================================
OPEN HOUSE THIS SUNDAY - 9/21 - 11:30am-2pm.
407 Park Avenue South, #18B
========================================

We are having an open house on Sunday Sept 21st between 11:30am and 2:00pm. The Ascot is located on the northeast corner of Park Avenue South and 28th street. The entrance of the building is on 28th street. The apartment number is 18B. Please tell the doorman where you are going and he will announce your visit.

Please email us for a private viewing if you can't make the open house.

No Brokers please.

========================================
OPEN HOUSE THIS SUNDAY - 9/28 - 1:00-3:30pm.
407 Park Avenue South, #18B
========================================

========================================
OPEN HOUSE THIS SUNDAY - 10/12 - 1:00-3:30pm.
407 Park Avenue South, #18B
========================================

We have reduced the price to $529k.

Larry,

Good luck on selling your apartment. This is a good education for people who are not familiar with Manhattan real estate. Even the so called 'undesirable' areas of Manhattan are not cheap anymore. This market is almost recession proof.

Great job on the design and decoration. Having a terrace is a premium