apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

I prefer your warm, snazzy bamboo look.

Depends. What is the whole apartment worth?

Seems excessive though, but doubt a kitchen twice its size would be double that amount. I think the small size is an odd factor into why the cost seems/is so high.

For twenty grand it isn't any more visually appealing than one of those pre-fab kitchenettes you find in tenement apartments and trailer houses.

What did the 20K go for? According to the link the price does not include appliances. It's ok, but looks just as good as something from Ikea, which would have been 1/10th of the cost.

-Bulthaup

Your kidding right?

$20k for a kitchen that size? I am forced to ask: does it cook the food for you, shop, and do the dishes too? What special features does it have (other than the designer's label)?

There is no stainless steel counter top in the image because frankly there is no real counter top of which to speak. What little space exists next to the stove is too close to the heating element--that clock and those kitchen utensils will melt should the owner ever attempt to use either of the two back burners. In effect you just paid 20k for some white-looking cabinets.

my kitchen was just as small (if not smaller), although a separate room, and I redid the entire thing in a much cozier way, with granite countertops on top of cabinets from Ikea, for less dough (actually, my entire apartment renovation cost me a little over $20K, but that included "half" renovating the bathroom (new sink, new faucets), refinishing all apartment floors, repainting the entire apartment, redoing all of the "off-trunk" plumbing for both kitchen and bath and rewiring about 2/3rds of the electrical throughout the apartment).

And I actually have counterspace. And a dishwasher. And a full (although 24" wide) oven and stovetop.

It's pretty, but not $20k pretty.

To be honest, it kind of bothers me when people order very expensive cabinets from Europe. Why can't they just bring a picture to their local cabinetmaker, ask him or her to use fsc certified lumber, and keep the money in the community and save the shipping time/cost/damage to the environment? With that said, I think how much money you put in depends on where the apartment is, ie. how much more value does it actually add to the apartment. If it's in an area where a wealthy person would want to live, chances are you will find someone who is willing to pay out, even if the place is small.

Definitely not worth the money. But just so we can compare, how much would the G-R Henrybuilt kitchen have cost us non-designers?

Where's the counter space at? If your kitchen is just for show and you can't actually prep anything in it, I question your nutrition.

Total status symbol. Don't love it. The craftsmanship is remarkable, I'm sure. It's another bauble though. I followed the jump and found this:

"7-foot-wide kitchen renovated for $20,000 (not including appliances)?"

jeepers. no thanks. I'd rather take the money and go to Tuscany and take a cooking class or something.

I would buy a new Hybrid car for $20K!

This kitchen is not my style, but I don't think I would pay 2 or 3 times over average for any kind of kitchen cabinets and I get the feeling that without the designer name, a similar aesthetic could be acheived for a lot less.

The owner of this kitchen must have some sort of roll-away island -- there's no place to even set down a glass there.

Mine's bigger and didn't cost that much:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/art_chel/1184988690/in/set-72157600128826994/

In the situation above, keep in mind that the 20k is for everything, including appliances and installation.

Break the scenario up into cabinetry and fixtures,

here's an off the cuff estimate of everything other than cabinets:

refrigerator: 6-7000

dishwasher: 1000

oven: 3-4000

stovetop: 1500

In my estimate, at least 10k for everything other than the Bulthaup cabinetry which could be estimated to cost around 10k.

Don't be mistaken, Henrybuilt is in the same cost category as Bulthaup and it is possible you may have to purchase countertops and sink separately whereas Bulthaup will complete the entire package. *I could be wrong here, please correct me if I am.

bulthaup makes really fantastic cabinetry. the quality is top notch. although, the glossy white ikea cabinets are pretty nice, too. if i had the spare change, i would buy myself some kick ass cabinetry, too.

@SFGAIL - right on girl! Slouching toward the shopaclypse. THe more I think it over, the more I hate it - and all it represents.

I think you can get that same kitchen from Ikea for $1,500. The appliances might be about $10,000 though.

This kitchen is a ripoff. Bulthaup probably charged the client more money due to disdain for such a small space commission. Given the flaws noted above, the sleek design was not well thought out for usability.

I guess the question is does it bring more than $20,000 of value to the property? The perceived value may be negligible except for those who may be more brand conscious.

I still think that a good copper pan, a few fine quality knives, and the very best ingredients were just about all a good cook needed, but AT is revealing its darker side when it asks if readers would pay $20,000 for this perfectly prosaic and serviceable kitchen. In a better world this is the sort of mass-produced kitchen that would retail for less than $2000 with appliances, and whose biggest client might be FEMA. Bulthaup and Henrybuilt and the myriad Euro-kitchen purveyors are fine, but IKEA is the rare one behaving as if they exist in a world with real problems to be solved and real responsibilities to be borne. Tell me, how can AT be "green" and ask us to consider this kitchen when today's NY Times reported that food banks across the nation were having to ration food? If I start a new company, DWC [Design Without Conscience] will you carry my advertising?

So it seems I jumped to conclusions.

New York prices...

As crazy as 20k sounds for a tiny kitchen, the last 3 estimates I have gotten for my kitchen have all come in at 20k for labor alone. My kitchen is 9 feet long with cabinets only on one side (similar to the one in this post). Granted I have to take down a wall and a pantry which adds 3k to the cost.
The stock cabinets that I was quoted for were all around 9k. And thats for 6 sets of cabinets. I went to Henrybuilt (I looooooooove their bamboo cabinets so much) and they quoted me 18k, just for cabinets.
I dont know if it's some sort of conspiracy, but all I keep getting back in terms of quotes is that a co-op kitchen in new york cannot be done for under 40k.
I'm at my wits end, and will most likely now use Ikea cabinets to offset some costs. Does anyone know of a good but affordable contractor that is licensed to work in a co-op??

I really like the look of this kitchen and it's a great design for a small space, so when I saw the poll I thought it was going to be a "hot or not" poll but when I saw that it cost $20K...well, I'm sorry but I just don't think it's worth a downpayment just for the kitchen :)

in my experience, european kitchens are over rated.
you'll get better finishing, better quality materials (you ought to see the crap they make the cabinets out of) and better installation if you work with a good millworker.
so i agree with the comment above. go local and it will be better all around, and cheaper by a 1/3, at least.

sauceykat, where are you from? $20,000 is a down payment on what, where? This is an NYC kitchen. $20,000 doesn't go very far here, alas, or I'd be rich, and I'm not. Alas.

The kitchen itself? Very cool, but also, very cold. I would not be happy in this kitchen, but the price is probably not out of line, sadly.

Marco,

That kitchen will never need to be replaced. It will never need to be thrown in to the garbage, or in a perfect world, recycled, like an Ikea kitchen.

I love Ikea and believe it's a great thing. But don't think that they're out to save the world. There stuff, in the end, is disposable. It serves a purpose, for some short term and for others, shorter.

So what's better? Stuff that lasts longer and costs more? Or stuff that costs less, is more heavily consumed and then disposed of? How many Bulthaup projects have been installed worldwide? How many Ikea products have been bought and thrown out worldwide? How many times have Ikea's toilets been flushed in their stores worldwide?

I appreciate where you're coming from but I digress.

Who is the stuff going to last longer for, art? You're paying $20,000 for some future residents to enjoy it? That's a nice gift but it could possibly not even be their style or it could be out dated by then.

I say find a Cabinet builder/carpenter who could give you the same effect for less...NYC or not NYC!

What kind of appliances cost $10000? You can get a decent, green refrigerator for less than 1500, and a stove for under 500, easily. The look is okay, but as others have stated, kind of cold. And, according to the post, the cost does NOT include appliances.

art, you can make your "cheap" stuff last long if you take care of it. it comes down to how much you value it. when these people leave their apartment (condo?), they might be replaced by equally rich tenants who will replace the kitchen because it's not their style. so, even though it could last long, it's thrown out, whereas the less expensive kitchen, like my own, survives forever because every successive poor student tenant isn't going to renovate.

another example to illustrate my point: over here, the mba students buy nice new furniture and toss it by the dumpsters every year. (my friend got a practically new quality queen-sized bed that way.) the other grad students buy used furniture and sell it (or give it away) once they're done. the ikea stuff probably lasts just as long, unless it gets mauled at parties.

and, no, i wouldn't spend $20k on this kitchen. i could use it for a down-payment on a small house out here. i note that $20k could have been used on solar panels, a green prospect, employing local technicians and giving business to hard-working engineers. ok, i do realize it's really hard to implement anything of the sort in city apartment complexes, but my point is that it's often those who have enough money who say that solar is too expensive. why the heck is this frivolous kitchen not too expensive?

In good conscience, I don't think I could pay $20,000 for that kitchen and those specific materials. With labor though, who knows how much it could cost? I live in California and a good friend is a carpenter/cabinetmaker, so I'd probably work with him to go cheaper on quality supplies and pay him as much as he'd let me/ask for. It would be handmade to my design specifications, so it could cost just as much (for all I know), but it could be cheaper, too.

Just my two cents, of course!

"What do you think? Is it worth $20,000?"

Um...NO.

There's nothing really wrong with this kitchen, it just doesn't remotely seem like 20K worth. That's enough to do a pretty fancy large kitchen, so this just seems overpriced for the materials to me.

If someone replaced the Bulthaup kitchen it could be sold and re-used by someone else as it is composed of modular units. A kitchen like that would sell on ebay for a fraction of its price perhaps put into someones basement, camper, bar, studio, etc. Point is, it's reusable, the best recycling method I can think of!

It will also never be outdated. There are kitchens like this that are 25-30 years old and they still look brand new.

Sorry for the rant! I know I'm straying from the question at hand which is, "Would I pay 20 grand for this kitchen," and the answer is, "No."

But would I pay for a Bulthaup kitchen again? Yes, indeed.

I guess it's kind of like furniture. Some furniture is expensive and timeless,

kind of like 2 of these chairs:

http://dwr.com/productdetail.cfm?id=10729

I think it's almost obscene. And I have an issue with shipping from Europe for large items. It's the opposite of green.

Art, all cabinets are modular.

bohinks,
I have a small U-shaped kitchen (7.5' x 10') that I am in the process of renovating. We went with Ikea cabinets and were able to get all of the cabinets for $2700 (a total of 13 cabinets). We actually chose one of the more expensive styles, you can get cabinets for much less.
Have you considered doing the labor yourself? I've helped friends install other cabinets (Home Depot, Lowes, etc.) and I though the Ikea cabinets were much easier to do, really made with the idea that someone would be installing the cabinets themsleves. I'm very pleased with the look and quality of the cabinets. Actually consumer reports rated Ikea's cabinets higher than those at Home Depot and Lowes, they came in at the best in their price range.
We had a similar situation as you and had to remove a wall and pantry and did that ourselves as well. If you don't feel comfortable with installation of drywall and such I might recommend doing the demolition of the kitchen yourself. It would save you several thousand dollars at least. Then high a contractor to do all of the finishing work. We were able the tear out all of the old cabinets, take down one small wall and tear out an entire wall of drywall in two days.

i forgot to add, art your kitchen is stunning and looks like a $20K kitchen, on top of that it actually looks functional which really is the most important thing about a kitchen.
What's the point of spending $20k on a kitchen that you obvisouly don't use. might as well hide a small fridge and microwave in a closet and spend the money on a sofa.

Where do you cut things??? I would have put in a cooktop with the flat electric top, so at least you could put a cutting board somewhere.

For crying out loud! $20K for this kitchen (which is sub-par looking at best) should be an embarrassment to the person or company that paid for it. I don't care if you're including the cost of the appliances or not, $20K is ridiculous for this size of kitchen.

What can I say to the idiot who paid for this: "Congratulations on your investment. Now that you paid way too much, you can sit back and enjoy not cooking anything in this way too small of a space, because now you have no money for food".

I don't understand why people like to brag about looking like they got thier wallet practically stolen out of thier hands. When did it become cool to get completely ripped off?

cali-nys does have a point about higher quality materials being just as disposable as lesser quality.
a good friend of mine is a carpenter in nyc and is currently working in a 4 million dollar apartment that they almost completely gutted and are remolding floor to ceiling.
i can almost garrantee you that none of the original materials from the apartment were sold on ebay after they ripped them out.

Vertigo,
That's what Im hoping to do as well. I too read the consumer reports article and thought some of the models were even better looking than some Craftmaid types.
I seriously doubt that I will be in this apartment much more than 5 years, so don't feel the need to buy extremely expensive cabinets. So too think I will go the Ikea route as well. Thanks for giving me a rought estimate of your costs.
The one caveat is since my apartment is a "co-op" I'm limited as to what "I" can actually do in terms of renovation. I agree with your suggestions to remove the cabinets myself. I don't think that my board would consider that risky. The wall, unfortunately requires paperwork from the Department of Buildings and subsequently a licensed and bonded contractor.
You would be amazed at the estimates I have gotten, in one price quote they quoted me 1200 to paint my 70sq ft kitchen (mind you, they would only have to paint one side that doesnt have cabinets).
Again, if anyone knows of an affordable contractor that is bonded/licensed in NYC, that could do the bulk of the work, and I could do the easier things (backsplash, demo old cabinets) I would definitely appreciate their contact info!

Vertigo, thanks for the compliment.

Selling materials on ebay is different than selling furniture and fixtures.

Being in NYC and in a co-op and in NYC definitely makes things more complicated and more expensive. Which is why when I was shopping for a condo (in jersey) I avoid co-ops like the plague.
i would say go with ikea they seem to show/resell well. wish i could help with some contractor info but the only friends i know that could do the work are really expensive.

Vertigo,
Thanks for all your input. Best of luck with your renovation.I would love to see if when it's complete!

To those bemoaning the lack of counterspace, I think that is not really Bulthaup's fault. That is a by-product of the ridiculous and obscene space situation here in lovely NYC. This kitchen would have no counterspace with $20 cabinets, either.

To those bemoaning the shipping of kitchens from afar, in what US state did your current computer come from?

For me, it comes back to what kind of building this place is in, and what the rest of the apartment has to offer. White glove building? Great location? Chrysler building view? Huge bathroom? Multitude of closets?

Any or all of those things help justify the cost, to a degree.

And/or perhaps it is being remodeled to sell to any of the many Europeans buying pied-a-terres in the city, so a European kitchen with a pedigree is deemed a worthy expense.

I also think it unfair to say "what does this have to offer" without feeling the finish, opening the drawers and generally kicking the tires.

It looks functional.

The question was, "Would you pay $20K for this kitchen?"

I would rather spend $20,000 on a nice, victorian bronze statue(s). (For $20k I could probably buy seven!) The bronze statue(s) will be around 100 years from now.

100 years from now, if this building still exists, this kitchen will have been redone, at least, 10 times. The design of this kitchen is rather uninspired so the answer to your question Mr. District Attorney, is no.

...so it's almost like we're seeing the kitchen out of context?

Maybe it has a 25 thousand dollar bathroom and a million dollar view.

I don't think shipping should be such a big concern. Yes, the kitchen is an import, but on the grand scale, these kitchens take a long time to ship on a big boat with lots of other stuff. If we stopped buying Ikea (which I don't advocate!) that would make a considerably more sizable dent in trans-oceanic shipping.

Not all cabinets are modular in the sense that they are individual, free-standing units that could be removed and reinstalled, especially flat-pack cabinets.

Here is my favourite small kitchen (just scroll down...http://www.parisattitude.com/apartment.asp?numProduit=1688# )

Love how textured and layered it is -- high/low, steel/wood. In this tiny, narrow space they managed to fit in counterspace. I wonder how much they spent?

Anyway, I have to agree that while I wouldn't spend 20K on this particular Bulthaup kitchen (couldn't they plunk an island in front to get some counterspace?), I echo the sentiment that it is far better to buy something that will last you beyond 7 or 10 years.

IKEA products, in my experience, last only as long as their guarantee; our first kitchen reno used IKEA cabinets. Right now, I am living (reluctantly) with an early '90s IKEA kitchen, and it is awful. The doors are delaminating, there is grunge stuck between the glass and the door frame that only dismantling will remove, and the sink cabinet is all set to fall apart. It's not a case of "taking care" of the cabinetry, it is a case of the materials giving out through ordinary use. I consider that extremely wasteful.

If we ever do another kitchen reno (I think my husband will pass out at the mere thought), the core of the cabinets will be, at the very least, marine grade plywood.

Forget the shipping and the outrageous price tag - it's just not pretty!!! It's like hospital room meets kitchen - icky!! And hello, where's a work surface??

That kitchen looks positively dreary.

My computer weighs less than 3lbs. I don't mind shipping from europe, but when you start talking about sofas or kitchen cabinets, it seems nuts.

The funny thing to me is when I lived in Europe, I missed my good ol' fashioned american appliances. Don't get me started on the "modern drying cabinet". Other than the sub-z, these appliances make me nervous.

People, People, People -

Unfortunately, local craftsmen do not have the expertise to pull this off. They can make really nice cabinetry, but no one does it like the Italians. And those locals who CAN make nice cabinetry will cost you must as much. It's all a matter of style. Mine is Valcucine. Not an easy process, but it rocks.
Anyone out there care to come up with a business plan that incoporates the best Italian design, but made in America? I'm listening.

Dathan

Sorry about the typos.

Do you have a link to your kitchen Dathan?

Valcucine definitely has some cool designs. The Alessi store even has a Valcucine kitchen modeled in their showroom.

After all of this discussion of whether it's worth it or not, I'd like to see a tour of this apartment! With good photography. This looks like a kitchen mugshot.

And before this thread disappears I must do the Bulthaup name justice by offering this view of another project:

http://www.bulthaup.com/bulthaup/internet/en/home.nsf/contentview/C1257083004B2148C125720B00511D80

Those cabinets are actually mounted to the wall.

I just wouldn't want people to confuse one particular client's wants and needs with what one of the world's most innovative kitchen furniture companies is capable of producing.

I believe a kitchen such as this is a better articulation of Bulthaup's ingredients.

Unfortunately, the link did not go straight to the picture I was referring to. On the bottom right of the picture is a clicker. It's the 7th photo. But they are all beautiful. Some of their signature elements have been imitated (think tambour doors, faucets, functional wall gap, pulls, etc.) but they do stand in a class of their own among other kitchen designs of the same caliber.

Art,

beautiful photos, but any good kitchen designer can make a photo studio look good.

The real world is what separates the best from the crowd. And this kitchen is nasty no matter how pretty their photo shoot utopias may be.

I honestly thought it was ikea at first.

Karin

Art, your kitchen is absolutely beautiful, as are the ones you sent links for.

I think we all agree that the kitchen in question, well, to be blunt, stinks. It is neither pretty nor functional.

In New York we all end up paying a lot for things that would cost less elsewhere, so the $20k (while CRAZY for that tiny space) is not unheard of for small spaces in this town.

It is my understanding that "buying locally" is important for the environment, so I would favor locally made cabinets over imports-- even if they weren't as beautiful. (Or in this case, because they might have been much more beautiful!)

I had a professional design and install my ikea cabinets to look as close of possible to the high gloss white cabinets of Boffi/Balthaup catalogs ---and they did an amazing job--total $6k including labor and plenty of custom work (my kicten is 6' X 6' but has odd angles). Then I splurged on appliances, a custom stainless steel countertop and tiled backsplash, going high end all the way. So no, cabinets are not worth $20k. Get a pro who can hack ikea cabinets! EVERYONE will assume your cabinets are expensive as long as the rest of your apt doesnt look cheap. And ikea quality is excellent in cabinets! The quality is more comparable to the $ in ikea than in Boffi/Balthaup

BTW, Ikea cabinets have come a long way since ikea cabinets of the pre-2000 era. Totally different animal.

As much as I like sleek design, I love the idea of a workspace that looks like someone works there. My German boyfriend has been trying to sell me the idea of a Balthaup kitchen (not $20,000 worth, but certain components) and I'm much more in love with something that looks like its been loved and used. I don't wanna live in a design catalog and quite frankly, I don't have the disipline to do so either.

It seems outrageous to spend that amount of money on a tiny kitchen.

That said, if I had an extra $20,000 -- and I mean EXTRA, with nothing else to do with it -- I would not hesitate to redo my kitchen to look like that. It really is hot.

For a kitchen that seems so unusable, I'd never invest that amount of money, but I guess it depends how much money you have. I'd also want a bit more of a statement. It just looks dull. Sleek and beautifully made, but dull.

For such a small space going with Bulthaup is rather obscene as it does not do Bulthaup justice and I'd rather go with custom installation if there are quality custom kitchen fabricators in my area. US$20k would be in line with Bulthaup pricing (factoring in importing etc although it would probably be US$20K for the cabinetry and appliances here in Europe). You'd have to experience the quality of their workmanship and materials to understand why they're priced that way. Like most designer kitchen and big kitchen fabricators they have a lot of proprietary stuff going on from materials to hardware. Some may say superfluous but again one needs to experience them to know they're worth the price.

I'm currently designing a 12 x 15 feet kitchen with an open U formation on three sides and the fourth side for floor to ceiling cabinetry. A Forster kitchen will set us back around US$ 65K complete with appliances and servo-drive motors for drawers. A comparable Bulthaup kitchen will run at about US$83K. Our budget is max $50K and I'm bent on using Gaggenau cooktops, oven and fridge (eating up more than half the budget). Forster is relatively local to us (same region in Switzerland), but since we have several custom fabricators that are more local to us (i.e. local businesses) we've decided to go with them and would probably without sacrificing quality (Swiss quality does not just apply to Swiss watches) but alas some materials would not be feasible (due to availabiltiy or the pricing would just be too prohibitive for such small operations) but I'd still be within budget give or take a few thousand. Besides, we entertain a lot and the kitchen is pretty much the central point in our household.

it doesn't lok 20 K to me.

look

i totally get that when you don't have the luxury of space, such as in a tiny apartment, it's great to have the luxury of top-of-the-line stuff. one exquisite vintage leather couch, crystal glasses, art, espresso maker - it's an artistic, luxurious minimalism. so maybe for some, this is right. not for me, though.

hideous.

Regarding henrybuilt: I have a 9 x 9 galley kitchen and was quoted $30k for cabinets, and this was their entry-point line made with bamboo and Durat, their cheapest materials. I don't doubt that Maxwell got his for less, but to suggest they are in any way a budget option is just nuts. That said, if I had unlimited funds, I would do henrybuilt over Bulthaup in a heartbeat.

Actually, the price didn't include the Durat countertops. Just the cabinets.

Regarding IKEA: I like the look and I wanted to feel the love, particularly given the thumbs-up from Consumer Reports, the Michael Formicas of the world, etc., but after talking to many contractors and many people who have had them for years, the consensus seems to be that they don't last for the ten years I plan to own my apartment. As for the contention that they are a different animal from the old-school stuff, they may have more bells and whistles and better hardware, but they are still particleboard.

That looks like an on-the-fly sponsor kitchen. I would look at that and think "That person was on a tight budget." It looks like the efficiency in some horrible town in Alabama someone in my family moved into after a divorce. (I have nothing against Alabama; this just happened to be a horrible town.)

While the kitchen above has packed more function per square footage than probably any other kitchen of its size, that functionality cannot be seen due to only one poor photo. Is it worth it? Assume the space is assessed to be worth $1 million dollars. If the kitchen with appliances is 30k that means the cost of the kitchen would be 3% of the total value of the property? Is that right?

One of Bulthaup's kitchen systems, System 20, is so ahead of it's time that it is already a design classic. It is a mobile modular system. It's popular in Europe as many properties are rented or purchased without a kitchen.
http://www.bulthaup.com/bulthaup/internet/en/home.nsf/contentview/89942A3AEF25C57FC1257076003075A6

It is impractical to use the "lasts forever" argument unless you plan to live, with that kitchen, come hell or highwater or change in trends, for 20 years. I promise you the next homeowner is not going to regard the kitchen cabinets as sacred if they have a different design vision.

Personally, I could spend 20k on a kitchen that size IF it bought the cabinets, the appliances, and a nice floor. And maybe a damn island so I have a place to cut a tomato, as well.

This style, however, is not appealling, and were I in love with the cabinets, I'd have interjected color SOMEWHERE. 20k worth of bland is repulsive.

Art, I sure hope the bulthaup dealer gave you a big discount for pushing them to hard!

Holy shill!

I wish! No, unfortunately no discount.

I just think it's a product worth talking up.

If you went into a showroom and looked at the pieces in person you would be very impressed.

In addition, the photos that you linked to were of course shot professionally but the kitchens are in real homes believe it or not. I know some of the homes look like storybook pages but in fact, Bulthaup kitchens will come with heavy duty hardware designed to attach the elements to stone and concrete walls which are more commonly found throughout Europe.

Nope, too late for discounts. Maybe next time!

Rather late to come into this conversation, but I wanted to echo the last comment. I spent 16 years in the US and only recently moved to Europe. And it was even more recently that I had the chance to check out Bulthaup products 'in the flesh' and I can honestly say that if you're thinking 'IKEA' from the cabinets, you simply have NO IDEA how these products are made. I can't explain it to someone who has experience only with the standard US cabinets without writing a thesis: the quality of the materials used (real stainless steel and aluminum and wood *inside* the cabinets and drawers), the fit and finish, the stability of the cabinets; these are kitchens that your children can inherit and use without having to renovate. Sorry for sounding like a Bulthaup salesperson, I was just very impressed by the examples I saw last weekend. To end, let me just add that the $20k would probably go a little further over here than it seems to have done in NYC. The prices I saw in Germany included Gaggenau appliances.